BlahBlahCafe - Jean-Michel Jarre forum

Dr_Jones wrote:You should listen to the first CD editions (aka the Red Face Editions) of Oxygene, Equinoxe and Magnetic Fields. They're direct vinyl master transfers with Equinxe being the most obvious one: it's the only one having the "vinyl" version of Equinoxe 5!

They are regarded as the best versions as a poll on this forum showed us a few years ago.

I'd be keen to hear those if they had been available somewhere to download. I don't think I've ever seen a single link for any of them.

Some uploads in certain places just aren't the best labeled. Most of the 80s copies of these albums that show up on the internet are from the represses of 1985/1986 onward, which have a more boosted and flawed sound (i.e. in addition to the cracks in Equinoxe 3, there is a slight drop in volume on Oxygene 3 near the end of the track).Yet, they're often labeled as the 1983/1984 ones, which don't have the issues of the later pressings, yet show up less often. It's just a mess.

I own the Red Polydor logo copy of Oxygene and the Black Ring copy of Equinoxe. They sound very excellent, being very balanced and detailed. I'm not sure how the original Red Face pressings might sound better, but I'd sure be open to it.

Velodynamic wrote:When you digitize a vinyl with flat or compressed brick wall sound mix it will appear as more dynamic because the software detects all the pops and scratches as more details and musical information which it "thinks" belongs to the musical mix, however in reality all it is is just added vinyl noise, pops and scratches. So the vinyl kind of disguises an originally flat mix with pointier wave forms and tones down the overall sound stage a bit.

The master for the vinyl is much quieter than that provided for CD / Digital. The difference in aural quality and dynamic range is clear. It's nothing to do with pops and clicks showing up as musical information ... Vinyl's inherent limitations are precisely why the masters provided for it are quieter - and better.

So what about this "better" vinyl master, is it digital from the beginning before it becomes a vinyl record? How come we don't have direct access to download that one instead of the brick wall squashed shite?
In my world of thoughts it would've been much easier that way and saved the production one whole step!

Velodynamic wrote:So what about this "better" vinyl master, is it digital from the beginning before it becomes a vinyl record? How come we don't have direct access to download that one instead of the brick wall squashed shite?

It is better, not "better". I wish I could answer your question, as I would like access to that download myself - it would save me from having to rip the vinyl

Having to rip the vinyl isn't even the biggest problem. The biggest problem here is that one will not get the best possible quality this way due to inherent flaws of the vinyl playback

Beats me why there's no proper (be it 96/24 or 48/24) "luxury" download release of the "better masters". Others have been doing it

http://www.katebush.com/shop/downloads/ ... t-download

With Kate’s high resolution downloads we have chosen to leave these recordings at the level they were mixed on the studio tape. We have deliberately chosen not to “normalize” these recordings to avoid introducing any quantization noise as described above. As a result, you may notice that the 24/96 files sound quieter when replayed on 16bit devices such as MP3 players or portable CD players.

With these files we also wanted you to be able to hear the recordings as close as possible to the way it sounded on the analogue master. For this reason we have chosen only to make available 24/96 .wav files

Sigh.

Well some "professional" studio engineers seems to think it is "better" to brick wall compress the final mix to hell!
Let the old robots chew on it a few hours and then spit it all out on a plate and lets call it a CD.
Not even the lossless 24bit flacs could be left alone! Are they digging their own grave or what??

This is too idiotic to even understand.

Velodynamic wrote:Not even the lossless 24bit flacs could be left alone!

If they are sourced from the same brickwall master then it's absolutely pointless.

I wonder if those HiRes audio stores (HDTracks, Qobuz) even care? Is most of their stuff done this way? Ie. same brickwalled master but in 48/24 which is enough for "audiophiles" to buy it so that they can delude themselves they are listening to better quality music? Would Sony provide them with the vinyl masters if they asked? I wonder. Honestly I don't know what their (HiRes audio stores) deal is and how they operate.

Velodynamic wrote:This too idiotic to even understand.

The music industry went through a fase in the 70's where louder meant better for some, or at least more attention in the air. It's been argued that Motown was the kickstarter of it all by pushing vinyl towards its limits even before that. But this thought process got worse and worse over the years (thanks to the CD being "unlimited" in loudness) with the absolute insanity reaching top levels in 2009/2010 with what some consider Metallica's Death Magnetic to be the absolute prime example of the madness. I'd personally say that ever since that happening music has gotten a bit quieter. And with a bit I really mean a bit. Hardwired to Self Destruct is still absolute trash in digital formats, but an improvement never the less (the vinyl is actually excellent btw).

But the problem is something that has its roots in the industry for over thirty years and with a few exceptions, it's just the standard to follow unfortunately. It has nothing to do with digging their own grave or even being idiotic. It's a matter of either not caring, or sticking their heads in the ground because they don't want to care. Something is the standard and that's what they like and feel save with.

Jote wrote:Honestly I don't know what their (HiRes audio stores) deal is and how they operate.

Personally I think it's more a matter of them working with what they get. And unless all of them come together (and more importantly the audience listening to the music) and actually work together in getting better quality releases, they're not going to be getting them.
The real fans have proven that they're willing to put money where their mouth is. They buy (expensive) records and some insane hardware for the absolutely optimal experience of some albums. Some even hunt down a very specific release because it's rumoured to be the best sounding release out there and go out of their way to get it. It's just not enough that very small handful of people to convince record companies and stores to actually fix the issue.

If I was an artist with albums containing flatten out sound mixes like that however I wouldn't feel safe for one second.

Jote wrote:Having to rip the vinyl isn't even the biggest problem. The biggest problem here is that one will not get the best possible quality this way due to inherent flaws of the vinyl playback

Beats me why there's no proper (be it 96/24 or 48/24) "luxury" download release of the "better masters". Others have been doing it

http://www.katebush.com/shop/downloads/ ... t-download

Couldn't agree more Jote - I have that Kate Bush download too. In fact, it was the reason I was able to get tickets to her concert in 2014 on pre-sale

Velodynamic wrote:If I was an artist with albums containing flatten out sound mixes like that however I wouldn't feel safe for one second.

Absolutely Velodynamic. The ironic / maddening / infuriating thing here is that CD and digital have the capability to better than vinyl if mastered properly. Listen to Mike Oldfield's RTO or Vangelis' 'Rosetta' *

* Apart from a few glitches ...

The idea of a 'luxury' or 'boutique' premium download / DVD-A / SACD / Blu-Ray Audio release is a good one, but as Jote says is completely pointless if brickwalled masters are the ones that are provided. That's why I'm left with only one option - rip from quieter vinyl masters, and clean them up as best as possible. Not ideal, but they sound remarkably good all the same ...

Pat Gleeson wrote:Vangelis' 'Rosetta' *

* Apart from a few glitches ...

AFAIK, Vangelis isn't into re-recording any of his older tracks ("Hymn" from the 1996 compilation album - also played in the 1991 Rotterdam concert - might have been the only exception), especially these days, so I doubt we'll get re-recorded versions of the tracks affected by whatever recording/mastering issues there were.

But still, Vangelis, Oldfield and Kate Bush go their way to bring out records with proper sound quality, whereas JMJ is the one saying "I didn't like the 2014-15 remasters either, but Oxygene 3 will be mastered properl vinyl style!" and then not delivering on that one. Then again, it's probably the record company's fault, they really don't seem to like him.

Finaero wrote:

Pat Gleeson wrote:Vangelis' 'Rosetta' *

* Apart from a few glitches ...

AFAIK, Vangelis isn't into re-recording any of his older tracks ("Hymn" from the 1996 compilation album .... Then again, it's probably the record company's fault, they really don't seem to like him.

Vangelis' recent remasters 'Heaven & Hell' especially are so drowned in reverb that hey are almost re-recordings. And he's editing them as well ...

I blame Sony for the loudness for sure, but Yakuda Audio have to share some of the blame for the appalling remasters ...

Pat Gleeson wrote:

Velodynamic wrote:If I was an artist with albums containing flatten out sound mixes like that however I wouldn't feel safe for one second.

Absolutely Velodynamic. The ironic / maddening / infuriating thing here is that CD and digital have the capability to better than vinyl if mastered properly. Listen to Mike Oldfield's RTO or Vangelis' 'Rosetta' *

* Apart from a few glitches ...

Ok so... Oxygene 3 CD:



...and just for the heaven and hell of it , Vangelis - Rossetta CD:



Yello - Toy, a very long CD so I had to cut it down for similar proportions and deleted
one of the (quiet) tracks. Kind of a mixed bag but still pretty dynamic and
not only red points at dr database. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/116334



We already know what Mike Oldfield's RTO sound curves (regardless formats) looks like, hands down case closed.