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Why has JMJ re-recorded the tracks for the in-doors tour ?


Post Posted Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:39 pm
Pat Gleeson


Posts: 762
Location: Limerick, Ireland
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From my own observations:

Concorde - practically all playback, except a few effects during Equinoxe 4 (TV broadcast)
China - Radio broadcast definitely live, and you can see JMJ and Dominique playing live on the concert film
Houston - mostly playback, except for JMJ solo on Oxygene 5 (Betacam bootleg)
Docklands - 50% live from what I could hear on site (my first JMJ gig)
La Defense - as Docklands, with the new pieces / arrangements live
Europe in Concert - same again
Oxygene Tour (1997) - ditto (great concert mis en scene)
Millennium Concert - playback mostly (Oxygene 4 being particularly embarrasing) great arrangements though (M6 Broadcast)
Okinawa - almost certainly all playback
Aalborg - as above - the beginning of the career slide IMO
Forbidden City - playback fest, the nadir IMO
Gdansk - mostly playback, nice arrangements of Industrial Revolution and Chronologie 2
Merzouga - mostly playback, 'nuff said
Oxygene Tour 2007-08 - A revelation, utterly stunning and 100% live
Tour 2009 - Present I'd say 70-30 i.e mostly live
Concerts attended:
Destination Docklands 1988
Paris la Defense 1990
Europe in Concert - Wembley Stadium 1993
Oxygene Tour - Wembley Arena 1997
Theatre Marigny Paris 2007
Oxygene Tour - NCH Dublin 2008
2010 Tour - The 02 Dublin The 02 London (10-10-10)
Electronica Tour - 3Arena Dublin 2016
Post Posted Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:39 pm
AERO62


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I personally don't care that much if it's playback or not, as long as it sounds good.

Having re-listened to the latest recordings, Monaco sounds the best of all so far.
Post Posted Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:18 am
thhedk


Posts: 162

Pat Gleeson wrote:From my own observations:

Concorde - practically all playback, except a few effects during Equinoxe 4 (TV broadcast)
China - Radio broadcast definitely live, and you can see JMJ and Dominique playing live on the concert film
Houston - mostly playback, except for JMJ solo on Oxygene 5 (Betacam bootleg)
Docklands - 50% live from what I could hear on site (my first JMJ gig)
La Defense - as Docklands, with the new pieces / arrangements live
Europe in Concert - same again
Oxygene Tour (1997) - ditto (great concert mis en scene)
Millennium Concert - playback mostly (Oxygene 4 being particularly embarrasing) great arrangements though (M6 Broadcast)
Okinawa - almost certainly all playback
Aalborg - as above - the beginning of the career slide IMO
Forbidden City - playback fest, the nadir IMO
Gdansk - mostly playback, nice arrangements of Industrial Revolution and Chronologie 2
Merzouga - mostly playback, 'nuff said
Oxygene Tour 2007-08 - A revelation, utterly stunning and 100% live
Tour 2009 - Present I'd say 70-30 i.e mostly live
Regarding Docklands, the CD/video version is not very Live, all the Revolutions stuff are played 100% perfect, which seems impossible when you hear how it's played today. But maybe the real concert was different?

Speaking of China, I just found this:
Peking Radio Broadcast

I have never heard that before - it is exelent quality! And this is 100% live I agree.
Post Posted Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:01 am
chronos


Posts: 82

Pat, you missed RV Lyon from your list!!

Am always bigging this concert up!!

This is one of the few gigs that am I sure was played live throughout (except wooloomooloomeloobeloofiddoo...) forget whatever JMJ was doing on the semi circular, that band behind him was playing live, someone even hit a bum note during equinoxe 7!
Post Posted Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:01 am
chronos


Posts: 82

Pat, you missed RV Lyon from your list!!

Am always bigging this concert up!!

This is one of the few gigs that am I sure was played live throughout (except wooloomooloomeloobeloofiddoo...) forget whatever JMJ was doing on the semi circular, that band behind him was playing live, someone even hit a bum note during equinoxe 7!
Post Posted Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:29 am
Finaero


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I'll riff on some of Pat's points here.

Concorde - practically all playback, except a few effects during Equinoxe 4 (TV broadcast)
I agree, and coincidentally I've never ever been that interested in this concert. I don't know if there's even a real video showing the real visuals that were going on during the gig, but I couldn't find one the last time I "cared" which was in 2003. :P Love the Equinoxe 7 Concorde single version, though!

China - Radio broadcast definitely live, and you can see JMJ and Dominique playing live on the concert film

Gotta love the bum note in Oxygene 2. Unlike most people, I don't think this gig sounds crap at all. I doubt it's from the very first night, though, unless it's not a live recording and they added some audience noises afterwards.

Houston - mostly playback, except for JMJ solo on Oxygene 5 (Betacam bootleg)
Gotta love the misplayed bassline in Oxygene 4 and how the choir in Rendez-Vous 2 sort of tumbles at first and then picks it up.

Lyon, on the other hand, has at least a full live orchestra and it sounds pretty great in the radio broadcast. Equinoxe 7 also kind of sounds live, methinks.

Docklands - 50% live from what I could hear on site (my first JMJ gig)
The odd laser harp sound in RV3 was kind of nice and what about one of the last notes of L'Emigrant played from a higher octave than in the album. Aside from those, I can't really remember any other differences but I haven't listened to the recordings that much in years. Also, on the audience recording/radio broadcast Hank Marvin's guitar parts sound totally different from the live album/video so they were at least live.

La Defense - as Docklands, with the new pieces / arrangements live
There actually was a thread (or maybe just a post) about the subject a few years back, where some of the engineers behind the scenes in the gig revealed that a lot of the gig was playback aside from the percussions, orchestra and many synth parts that weren't played by Jarre. Funnily enough, there's the pre-concert footage video on YouTube showing the rehearsals of Calypso 3 and if I remember correctly, the keys that Jarre played on the greatest keytar ever matched with the sounds that came out.

Concert pour la tolerance
This thread is starting to make me realize I haven't actually watched these concerts in years... but in any case, I like how in Revolution, Revolutions Jarre stumbles over the "TV, NO TV" part and just mumbles "TV". (BTW, this has got to be one of the weirdest Jarre performances ever with the girls and whatnot)

Oxygene Tour (1997) - ditto (great concert mis en scene)
There's this recording from the Wembley-Brussels album (probably the best sound quality of all the 1997 bootlegs but I just can't really understand why it's from two cities instead of one) during Oxygene 4 where Jarre plays part of the solo at the end of the song wrong but otherwise exactly as it should sound like. One of my definite "oh, it's live after all!" favorites.

Oxygene Tour 2007-08 - A revelation, utterly stunning and 100% live
What reignited my interest in his music after a 2-year-slump, really.

In fact, I think it's a good thing that the gigs aren't as live again as they were during the Oxygene 07-08 Tour. All the reactions afterwards to the 1.8 seconds of joy due to Equinoxe 5's return and whatnot has showcased that maybe most of the non-casual "fans" don't deserve good things like that since they'll just complain about it anyway. I can safely say that most of the stuff you've seen Jarre himself play hasn't been live but when you accuse all the other musicians (and yes, they're also real musicians as all the "real musicians" who complain about this stuff) of not playing live, well, they have a right to be enraged. Talent like Gary Wallis at 12DotS and of course the main band itself (I think Francis Rimbert even lashed out at this subject at one point).

But yes, I'll also admit that even they have been miming quite often. And as with the whole subject, I doubt it's because they lack talent but it's because of the production itself.

And on a bit larger scale, when Kraftwerk goes up to the stage with their laptops and robots, playbacking stuff from their laptops with some neat live parts added in, everyone suddenly becomes orgasmic. Some, and more often than not people not from forums like this, even say "this is what electronic music should be like!". When the Pet Shop Boys have hit the stage with mimed backgrounds and (more often than not) live vocals, NOBODY COMPLAINS. Well, aside from the usual press that doesn't like the band, but that's a given in all cases like this. Maybe Jarre is not electronic music then?

Then again, Jarre has never been popular in the press and Kraftwerk would get eternal praise for having a Duracell rabbit on the stage playing Spiegelsaal. Don't get me wrong, I'm a major Kraftwerk fan, but it's just a funny observation.

Oh, and I'm not saying Jarre should mime, it's just that up to the Aero-era downtime, it didn't bother me because the concerts I watched (conveniently omitting the Concorde gig) still sounded sufficiently different from the albums that I got interested in the man's music in the first place. Not to mention this topic will never die, I don't know what's the case today, but in 2003 you could still find Usenet posts from 1988 complaining about recorders on the back of the stage and stuff like that.

[TL;DR] If Jarre and (parts of) his band MIME/DON'T MIME, people will find things to complain about. Some will use constructive criticism, though.
Post Posted Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:39 am
Pat Gleeson


Posts: 762
Location: Limerick, Ireland
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chronos wrote:Pat, you missed RV Lyon from your list!!

Am always bigging this concert up!!

This is one of the few gigs that am I sure was played live throughout (except wooloomooloomeloobeloofiddoo...) forget whatever JMJ was doing on the semi circular, that band behind him was playing live, someone even hit a bum note during equinoxe 7!

Bloody hell, how'd I miss that ? :D I agree that much more of this concert was live compared to Houston.
Concerts attended:
Destination Docklands 1988
Paris la Defense 1990
Europe in Concert - Wembley Stadium 1993
Oxygene Tour - Wembley Arena 1997
Theatre Marigny Paris 2007
Oxygene Tour - NCH Dublin 2008
2010 Tour - The 02 Dublin The 02 London (10-10-10)
Electronica Tour - 3Arena Dublin 2016
Post Posted Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:37 am
AERO62


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How did this thread turn into -playback- discussion?

In any case, I think It was a bit harsh of me creating this thread in the first place. I take it back, every concert in tour is unique, and even if the new 'remixes' are worse than what was in the 80s and 90s, let's not forget -the music is changing every decade or so, and he's trying to adapt and not sound too 'old'...So, let's stop criticizing and enjoy the music.
Post Posted Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:49 am
Finaero


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At least it's not as bad as the situation was on the Jarre.net Forums. After all, a special thread on the subject had to be made in this forum's early years. I also remember reading some very zany "theories" on Space of Freedom, but admittedly I haven't checked those forums in a long time either, so I can't comment on how bad the situation might be elsewhere.

But as far as the original subject goes, no worries, AERO62. It's a matter of taste. I liked it when he came up with stuff like the Magnetic Fields 2 Oxygene Tour version, but the 2000-2006 "Disney" version of Rendez-Vous 2 never really grew up on me.
Post Posted Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:39 pm
Domestos


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Docklands - 50% live from what I could hear on site (my first JMJ gig)
The odd laser harp sound in RV3 was kind of nice and what about one of the last notes of L'Emigrant played from a higher octave than in the album. Aside from those, I can't really remember any other differences but I haven't listened to the recordings that much in years. Also, on the audience recording/radio broadcast Hank Marvin's guitar parts sound totally different from the live album/video so they were at least live.
For me it's the drums that stick out on the bootleg/radio recordings, more cymbals and stuff. They definitely sound live to me. Same for the guitar parts, as you say.

It just saddens me that most of the 'live' albums sound totally different to the bootlegs. Like they just took the studio versions and stuck audience sound over the top.

As for the current tour I have no complaints at all other than Jerome's solos, they really spoil things for me. It's all you can hear :evil:
Post Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:01 pm
Vumiko


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Posts: 62
Location: USA

Past large scale shows were maybe 2% live: the live parts being drums, percussion and bass. Everything else was playback (or in some cases, played at such low volume under pre-recorded tracks that no one could hear). Keep in mind I'm a musician myself and I can tell the difference in sound and performance when an artist actually plays a piece live.

Monaco had plenty of little live bits and pieces over pre-recorded material, but in terms of JMJ's performance: he didn't play any lead melodies live (Oxygene 4, Chrono 1, 2 & 4, Rendez-Vous 4, Vintage, etc). What he actually plays live are the following:

Keytar solo's
Laser Harp
Therimin
Sound/Sample pads
Little incidental pieces
Variation 3 improvs

For example the main lead melody for Chronologie 4 was not played live by Jarre, but the synth solo at the end (on the Nord Lead) was live.

His "partners in crime" are a bit harder to pin down (because the camera isn't always on them); but for Monaco:

-The guy who replaced Dominique is mostly doing the "side solos" that embellish/compliment the main theme (RDV 4, MF 2, for example) and he was adding some live sequences to other tracks. I believe he does some pads and bass as well.

-Francis does pads, bass and some lead melody playing (to which JMJ is miming). Sometimes he seems to "fake" sequences; but he's the real keyboard virtuoso in the band. Past shows like China and Gdansk basically had him mime the whole performance, which is a huge waste of talent in my opinion.

-Claude does the percussion and seemingly not much else. You'll notice he's surrounded by synths but those are only for show. Variation 3 is probably the only song in which he adds synth playing of value. During the In Door tour he was in change of staring and stopping the payback of every song (from what I remember).

La Defense was all playback synth wise. But the drum, percussion and bass players were excellent and I would love to see him work with those guys again. Musically it was one of his best shows; the arrangements were superb and full of life (even if not performed entirely live).

Here's what Jarre played live at La Defense:

-Camera click sound during Souvenir Of China (he presses a little button on the side of the keyboard)
-Laser Harp during Calypso 2 (you can hear his playing on the audience/radio broadcasts)

That's it. Everything else was for show.

The other synth players weren't playing anything that we (audience/TV viewers) can hear. (With the exception of Dominique's keytar solo at the end of MF2, which I believe was live. And he looked terrified.)

It's all part of the show; the overall experience. Jarre is giving the audience an "impression" or "illusion" of live performance without any of the risk. His band was simply another facet of the spectacle; not meant to be the main focus.

On the current 2011 tour you'll still find him mimming the lead synth parts, but hes paying the more improvised parts live (keytar solos, laster harp etc)-- hes more comfortable with this.

Other shows:
China 1981: He plays some parts live
Houston/Lyon: JMJ mimes the entire show
Doclands: JMJ mimes
La Defense: Mimes
EIC: Plays some parts live; mostly playback (on his part)
CPLT: Plays some parts live; mostly playback (on his part)
Oxy Tour 97: Plays some parts live; mostly playback (on his part)
Moscow: Plays some parts live; mostly playback (on his part)
Egypt: Playback
Greece: Plays some parts live; mostly playback (on his part)
Denmark: Plays some parts live; mostly playback (on his part)
China: All playback
Poland: Mostly playback
Oxygene Tour: PLAYS HIS PERFORMANCE LIVE
In-Doors/2011 Tour: Mix of live playing and playback (for JMJ).

End.
Post Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:22 pm
Robi


Posts: 3340
Location: Kiskoros, Hungary

"For example the main lead melody for Chronologie 4 was not played live by Jarre, but the synth solo at the end (on the Nord Lead) was live."

I believe that was live.

Anyway read Finaero's post above. :P
"I will release my next album at the end of this year"
Post Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:51 pm
Finaero


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Vumiko wrote:The other synth players weren't playing anything that we (audience/TV viewers) can hear.
I found two interesting links on the subject

SHARPBLUE's thread
Christophe Deschamps interview

I swear I remember one other source that mentioned the players playing some silly tunes between the songs for their own amusement. Even though those links don't exactly state that the drums were live, well, try playing acoustic drums yourself without making a sound. Or just take a listen to the radio broadcast or the (much rarer) transmission channel recording. :)
Post Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:09 pm
Vumiko


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Location: USA

Finaero wrote:
Vumiko wrote:The other synth players weren't playing anything that we (audience/TV viewers) can hear.
I found two interesting links on the subject

SHARPBLUE's thread
Christophe Deschamps interview

I swear I remember one other source that mentioned the players playing some silly tunes between the songs for their own amusement. Even though those links don't exactly state that the drums were live, well, try playing acoustic drums yourself without making a sound. Or just take a listen to the radio broadcast or the (much rarer) transmission channel recording. :)
Yes, drums were live at La Defense but the synths were not.
Post Posted Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:11 pm
Vumiko


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Location: USA

Robi wrote:"For example the main lead melody for Chronologie 4 was not played live by Jarre, but the synth solo at the end (on the Nord Lead) was live."

I believe that was live.

Anyway read Finaero's post above. :P
I stand by my assessment.







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